Lunches with Lucas – Session I

I gave Lucas a slight wave as he came in, as if to signal to him where I was sitting.  Not that it made any sense – we’d sat at this same table every week for as long as either of us could remember.  I noticed that Lucas sat down with a more intense look than usual.

“What’s up?” I asked.

Lucas responded with a smile, but clearly he had an agenda on his mind.  “Prove to me that God doesn’t exist!” he said.

“Whoa – usually you wait until we start eating to launch into your philosophical questions – why are you in such a hurry?”

“No hurry really.  I was just thinking that I’m usually the one on the defense – trying to ‘prove God’ and ‘explain the Bible’ and ‘justify why Christians do such awful things.’  Just seemed like it was time to turn the tables,” Lucas said with grin.  He obviously felt he had found some great line of thinking and was anxious to try it out.  “So – let’s have it – let’s hear your proof.”

I laughed at him in a way you can only do with an old friend.  “You know that’s not my problem.  You’re the one who has to prove things.  If you want people to believe in God, then the burden of proof is on you.”

“You’re just dodging the question.  Everyone has a ‘burden of proof’ if they want to make their point.  We each have our different viewpoint and if we want to argue our point, then we have an equal burden of proof.” 

“I don’t know about that, but the difference is that I don’t care if you agree with me – that’s why I don’t have the burden of proof,” I said.

“Hah!” he smiled.  “I’m pretty sure that you really do care.  Can’t we just agree that everyone has a burden of proof if they are trying to intelligently defend their point of view…and then we can move on to a real discussion?”

I had to admit that he had a reasonable point, but I didn’t feel like yielding the issue too easily.  “I’m not sure about that but, for the sake of a ‘real discussion’ as you call it, I’ll grant that we each have an equal burden of proof…although I think your burden of proof is more equal than mine!”

Lucas ignored my Orwellian reference.  He clearly wanted to get on with his agenda.  “Fine.  I’ll take that as the best I’m going to get.  So, now, will you consider my original question – how do you prove God does not exist?”

I was a bit surprised that Lucas was expressing such a simpleton question.  He usually started the conversation with something much more subtle and obtuse.  “You know that’s a trick question and not even worth addressing.  You can’t prove a universal negative like that.”  I figured Lucas would give me some slack regarding that last statement.

“So you admit that God could exist?” Lucas said, seeming pleased.

I rolled my eyes.  “Are you kidding me?  Is that your goal for the day – to get me to admit that there is some miniscule chance that God exists and then proclaim ‘then you must not be an atheist’?  That’s an old lame argument Lucas – I thought you were better than that.”  I could see, though, that he wasn’t serious – he was just trying to get me riled up.

“You know I have no interest in that.  I always use a more practical definition: an atheist is one who lives as if there were no God.  I’m not interested in technicalities of label definitions.  Actually, I know plenty of Christians who seem to qualify as atheists based on how they live!”

I was still confused as to where Lucas was going with this.  “So what’s your point?” 

Lucas thought for a moment.  “I think I’m not phrasing my question right.  …I mean, you are pretty certain there is no God, right?”

“Right.”

“You’re so certain that you’d bet your life on it, right?  I mean, really, you already have bet your life on it,” Lucas said.

“I suppose you could phrase it that way.  But, yes, as you know, I don’t think it is reasonable at all to believe that God exists,” I said.

“OK – good.  So, what is it that makes you so certain?  I know you understand that I’m not asking for proof – I know you can’t give 100% proof and neither can I – but you pretty much live your life based on the high probability that there is no God.  What gives you the confidence to live that way?”

I kind of felt like we had talked about this before, but it seemed like an open invitation to review the overwhelming evidence.  So, I let loose with my thoughts without bothering to be too organized.  “Well, first of all, all you have to do is look around.  Where is God in anything you see?  I don’t imagine there are leprechauns behind every tree and I don’t imagine there is God behind every bush.  When I look around, I don’t make things up.  Everything is natural and logical.  If there is an eclipse of the sun, I don’t freak out and think it is God at work – I know it is just the natural orbiting pattern of the planets.  I think it rains because of the weather patterns – ultimately based on laws of physics.  I don’t think it rains because some grandma somewhere prayed for it to rain.  I’m a scientist – so are you – and science has eliminated the need for explaining things through myths and fairy tales and by invoking supernatural beings.  I don’t need God to go through life.  Adding some idea of God just adds a lot of complication needlessly.  I’ve never found the need to bring God in.”

“Good,” Lucas said, “now we’re getting somewhere.  So you think science explains everything.”

“I’m not sure that I would phrase it as ‘science’ explains everything.  But we understand that everything around us is a natural process and so there is a no need to bring God into our explanations.”

“Great.  So how does science explain human consciousness?”

“I figured you’d go there.  Actually, I’m kind of surprised you didn’t ask me to explain human free will.”

“I wanted to,” he said with a smile, “but I know you don’t think there is such a thing as free will.  But everyone agrees there is such a thing as human consciousness.”

“I admit that human consciousness doesn’t have a really good explanation yet.  But there is plenty of work on that.  Just because we can’t explain it beginning to end doesn’t mean that we just throw up our hands and say ‘oh – it must be God at work.’”

“So, basically you believe that science will explain everything that hasn’t been explained?  Doesn’t that take a lot of faith?  Sounds like a religious belief to me.”

I knew Lucas was trying to get in one of his favorite digs.  “I know you like to call it ‘faith’ because it makes you feel better.  But we’re talking about a logical pattern of human thinking that has carried on for probably thousands of years but certainly for the past five hundred years.  As man has carefully explored the universe, he has discovered that there are logical and natural explanations for the things he sees.  The track record of science is overwhelming here.  It’s not just that science has done a good job of explaining a few things.  Almost everything has already been shown to fit into the logical framework of physics.  So, yes, I feel very confident that the few remaining ‘unknowns’ will eventually be explained based on those same laws of physics.  Or maybe it will require new laws of physics.  But the point is, the explanations will be based on nature, not God.  I’m standing on a very solid foundation here.  I know you don’t like it, but it’s not ‘faith’ – it’s based on the overwhelming evidence of the past.”

“So is science going to explain the resurrection of Jesus?” Lucas asked.

“Science doesn’t have to explain ancient myths.  But what science does show is that when we see or experience something unexpected – something you might call a ‘miracle’ – we find that it has a natural explanation.  Like an eclipse, as I mentioned before.”

“There’s a natural explanation for someone rising from the dead?”

“Well, there might be.  But in the case you’re talking about, it is clear that it didn’t happen the way you think it did.  I mean who knows if Jesus was even real.”

Lucas didn’t take my bait on my last statement.  “How do you know how it happened?  You weren’t there.”

“Right, and neither were you.  But, unlike you, I stand on the strong and firm foundation of science and history.  We know now that there is no such thing as miracles.  If someone is truly dead, they stay dead.  Again, the evidence there is overwhelming.  All of human history tells us that.  And science has helped explain why that is.  So when someone tells me that something happened that I know can’t happen, I don’t just so ‘oh, well, I guess five hundred years of science should be thrown out the window because you just saw a ghost.’  That’s foolishness.  When you try to tell me that someone 2000 years ago came to life after being dead for a few days, I don’t take it seriously at all.  I know you’d like to believe it happened, but it never happened and never will happen.”  I felt a little bad at pushing Lucas’s buttons, but then, he was the one who brought it up.  I was just here for a nice friendly lunch.

“Perfect then,” Lucas said with some finality, “there are no miracles.  There never have been any miracles in the past and there never will be any miracles in the future.”  He looked at me for some confirmation, but I said nothing.  “Right?” he challenged.

“Look, I can go through my day without needing to invoke any existence of a God or miracles or any other supernatural event.  I’m sorry that you don’t agree, but there is just no such thing as a miracle.  Everything has a natural explanation, not a supernatural one.”

“So, in the whole entire universe, there is nothing supernatural.”

“Everything is nature.”

“And you’re sure of that even though you haven’t been everywhere in the universe.”

I was a little frustrated with Lucas at this point.  “Now you’re back to looking for proof.  Of course I haven’t looked everywhere.  Neither have you.  But as far as everything that every human being has looked into for as long as history has been recorded, there is no finding of a ‘super-nature’.  Everything is just ‘nature.’  Have you looked and found some ‘super-nature’ under a rock somewhere?”

“Actually yes.”  Lucas brightened, “I found ‘super-nature’ behind a big rock in front of a tomb in Jerusalem.” 

Lucas was impressed with himself, I could see.  I was not.  I just rolled my eyes.  “Can we just eat?” I asked.

“Sure,” he said.  “Let me just summarize:  there is only nature and there is no such thing as anything ‘supernatural’, no such thing as a miracle, and no such thing as God.  There never has been and there never will be.  Is that about right?”

“Sounds good.  I hope you’re satisfied,” I said.  “I’ll be more satisfied when I can finish this sandwich!”

“OK.  We’ll talk more next time.”

“Oh, I really can’t wait!” I said…lying.

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