[This is a continuing conversation...to start at the beginning, click here]
“Hey - it's been a while - great to see you again!” Lucas exclaimed as I walked toward our familiar table.
“Yes - too long, my friend," I said as I shook his hand, and sat down at the table. "I guess you were too busy for me” I kidded him, knowing that we were both at fault for the lapse in time.
“Too busy? I've been waiting here for months!” Lucas said with a smile.
“Hey look, they have new menus,” I said, glancing down at the table. "Maybe I'll see if there's something different that I want to order." I opened up the new menu and started reading, although, to be honest, I didn't really remember if I had ever looked at the old one. I glanced up and saw that Lucas was just staring at me with a smirk.
"What?" I asked.
"We both know that you are going to order corned beef on rye. Stop pretending you won't," Lucas exclaimed, laughing at me.
"Maybe I will order soup, just to spite you."
"Hah! You can't. You're a creature of habit. Just admit it," Lucas jabbed as the waitress came over.
Now I was conflicted. I wanted to prove Lucas wrong. But what was better than the corned beef on rye? Why waste money on something I didn't like as much? But getting back at Lucas and showing I was not just a creature of habit seemed more than worth it.
"The usual?" the waitress asked.
"No, I'll have...." I looked down at the menu again. Tomato soup? A BLT? I felt the pressure of needing to make a decision over something so simple. So, with an air of smugness at proving Lucas wrong, I finally said "I'll have your corned beef on rye...with extra horseradish please," and sat back.
"So...the usual." the waitress said, and turned away.
Lucas let it pass without comment. Of course, the fact was, he had ordered his usual too. What a boring pair of friends we were! "I think we need a spark of creativity in our lunches!" I said with a smile, "Let's talk about something we've never talked about before."
Lucas seemed ready for that and immediately asked "How about the news about the man who died and then came back to life?"
"Well, that's certainly random, though hardly creative. I mean, people have been reporting near-death experiences for years. I remember reading a book a few years ago about a neurosurgeon who had one of those experiences - it was pretty interesting."
"No, I'm talking about the guy who was dead for four days!" Lucas exclaimed.
"What in the world are you talking about? Did someone post that on Facebook or something? Because everyone knows that Facebook is the source or real truth," I derided.
"No, as you know, I don't do Facebook. Actually I read it in a book."
"A book? What book? " I retorted.
"The book is called 'John'" Lucas said, with a look of finality.
"John? Never heard of it - who wrote it? Is this some book that just came out?" This seemed like a strange conversation to me. Had he gone off the deep end in the weeks since the last time we had lunch together? I should not have suggested a 'creative' lunch topic. This once more reinforced in me that being a creature of habit was generally a good strategy in life!
"Actually, the book was written about 2000 years ago. Some people refer to it as the Gospel of John..."
"Are you kidding?" I interrupted. "We meet for lunch after a few months of not getting together and the best you can come up with is to pretend that the resurrection of Jesus happened yesterday?" Maybe I was a creature of habit with respect to my lunch menu, but Lucas was certainly a creature of habit when it came to bringing up some random topic from the Bible.
"Actually, I was referring to the raising of Lazarus. And just because something happened long ago doesn't mean it isn't important," Lucas said.
I wasn't going to keep this conversation going, but the mention of Lazarus sparked a memory of a time years ago when I had looked into that event and recalled there was some good retort about it. What was it? Suddenly, from the cobwebs of my brain I remembered what it was. Now I could turn the tables and get something over on Lucas. "Doesn't the Bible say that you need two or three witnesses to confirm something?" I challenged.
Lucas looked shocked that I would be challenging him about something from the Bible. "Well...yes it does...why?"
"Well, as I recall, your 'amazing' story about Lazarus is only recorded in your 'book' of John and not anywhere else in the Bible - or any other book in the entire world, for that matter - so you only have one witness, and he was obviously pretty biased," I proclaimed, quite proud of myself for remembering that detail.
Lucas actually seemed pleased at my response. "You're right! I'm impressed you knew that."
"Thank you"
"So, what you're telling me is you need more witnesses before you would believe a miracle?" Lucas asked.
"A lot more!"
"Okay - what about the time Jesus fed 5000 people with just a few bits of bread and fish? I mean, at least 5000 people saw that, plus the disciples and Jesus...plus it's recorded in all four gospels, so that means at least 5000+10+1+2 = 5013 people saw it."
I ignored his goofy math. "I'd like to talk to those 5000 people and confirm that story...but I can't...because they're all dead and they've been dead for 2000 years, assuming they existed at all! That's not real evidence. Lots of people have claimed lots of impossible things in history. I don't believe any of them and neither would you if you really thought about it. Let's talk about something else."
"So, it's not just a lot of witnesses - you need a miracle to happen today, not yesterday," Lucas persisted.
"No - I just need something current. You're bringing up ancient history. There's no way to substantiate things that happened so long ago."
"Have you ever heard of Brother Yun?" Lucas asked.
"Are you changing the subject? Because, if you are, I'm all for it. But, no, I've never heard of him."
"He wrote a book about his experiences called 'Heavenly Man'. It's pretty interesting. He fasted without food and water for 74 days while in prison and survived. How about that for a miracle?" Lucas challenged.
"No water for 74 days? That's impossible, as you know," I stated.
"Impossible...or a miracle. He's still alive. Does that count as current enough for you?"
"Have you met this guy?"
"No, but I think he lives in the US now," Lucas said, as if it was helpful.
"You can't believe every goofy story you read in a book and I'm not about to waste my life chasing down everyone's crazy story I hear, just to confirm it was false. How can you possibly believe that such a story is true? Did you check it on Snopes?" I asked.
"Actually, I'm not sure if it's true either," Lucas admitted, "but my point is that for you to believe some event like that, it would need to have witnesses, be current, and...you would need the person to be sitting right in front of you. You need to be able to grill the person yourself, right?"
"Yes, for something that never happened - they better be sitting right in front of me - and even then I'm skeptical. They'd have to be able to show me proof," I said.
"OK, well, I'm sitting right here and I know you're well aware of how God miraculously intervened in my cancer diagnosis. Is that sufficient proof?" Lucas asked.
Now the conversation was becoming uncomfortable. I certainly remembered the time Lucas had been diagnosed with cancer and then, at an appointment to prepare for chemotherapy, they found no trace of cancer. Personally, I considered it a "medical mistake", but of course Lucas considered it a miracle. At the time I was just happy for him and I didn't mind him claiming God cured him. I was just happy he didn't have cancer. But I didn't think it was very considerate of him to bring that up now and try to use it to paint me into a corner. "Well..." I started.
But Lucas sensed he had gone a bit too far and intervened. "I get it - you view it differently than I do. And I know we're friends and all, and it happened to me and not to you. What you really need is to experience something like this yourself."
I wasn't sure that was completely true. Lucas continued "I mean, at least if it happens to you, then you don't have to worry about trying to determine if someone is telling the truth."
"I don't know if it has to happen to me, specifically - but I would have to be totally convinced of the truth of it," I said.
"But if you're not convinced that I was telling the truth about my cancer diagnosis, then it seems like the only one you would really believe is yourself," Lucas said, but not in an accusatory tone.
"I believe you're telling the truth," I said, backtracking a bit. I didn't really want to get into an argument about that event - it was too personal for both of us. "I mean..." I paused as I searched for an example. "I'm just not going to stop drinking for 74 days and see if your God keeps me alive!" I said, trying to change the focus of the conversation.
Lucas seemed happy enough to take the conversation in a different direction. He laughed "no, I wouldn't recommend trying to go without eating or drinking for a couple of months! And I can't blame you for really needing to be fully convinced. All the things I talked about happened to someone else, not to you. So..." Lucas paused, "what about the miracle that you can personally experience every day whenever you want?"
"Right" I said sarcastically. "I just conjure it up and 'poof', there it is."
"Well, your human ability to exhibit free will is exactly that kind of miracle," Lucas said, as if he really believed it. "Think about it - it's the perfect miracle that you can test at any time."
"Oh good grief - that's ridiculous. Just because things like free will aren't fully explained scientifically, it doesn't mean you can put them in the category of 'miracles'. Even you don't really believe that," I said, challenging him.
"Ah yes - an AYUNE" Lucas said with a smile.
"What?"
"An AYUNE - as yet unexplained natural event," Lucas said.
I rolled my eyes. "Oh, right, you've used that ridiculous expression before."
"It's fine - I understand why you don't want to view something like free will as being a miracle. It seems too obvious to us - too natural," Lucas conceded. "But do you see what you've done here?"
"Yes I see what I've done - I've totally forgotten how painful lunches with you can be," I said with a smile.
Lucas ignored the dig. "You keep moving the bar."
"What 'bar'?"
"I mean first you needed more witnesses - then you needed something current not old - then you needed to be able to talk to the individual directly - and then even that is not good enough. And when something happens that you actually experience yourself, you write it off as a natural event anyway. You will keep moving the bar and nothing will ever be good enough to break through your disbelief," Lucas stated.
"And you say that as if my position is illogical. But I'm the logical one here. Most people see things the way I do. I don't see miracles around every corner or every time I exercise my 'free will' like you do," I said, using air quotes around free will because I knew that really bugged Lucas. "And I'm comfortable with that."
"My point is that the reason you don't believe in anything supernatural is because you don't want to believe, not because of any lack of evidence. You've set up your whole concept of the world so that it is impossible for there to be any evidence of the supernatural. And then you say everything is natural - nothing is supernatural," Lucas pressed.
"There is no evidence for the supernatural," I responded, as our food arrived.
"No - the fact is that you won't allow there to be evidence."
"OK, fine," I said, "I don't believe because I don't want to believe - is that what you want me to say?"
"Well - isn't that true?" Lucas asked.
"So...I said it.
Let's move on to some 'boring' topic of conversation," I said,
taking a bite of my corned beef and letting the horseradish clear my mind. "How's work going for you?"
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