I gave Lucas a slight wave as he came in, as if to signal to
him where I was sitting. Not that it
made any sense – we’d sat at this same table every week for as long as either
of us could remember. I noticed that Lucas
sat down with a more intense look than usual.
“What’s up?” I asked.
Lucas responded with a smile, but clearly he had an agenda on
his mind. “Prove to me that God doesn’t
exist!” he said.
“Whoa – usually you wait until we start eating to launch
into your philosophical questions – why are you in such a hurry?”
“No hurry really. I
was just thinking that I’m usually the one on the defense – trying to ‘prove
God’ and ‘explain the Bible’ and ‘justify why Christians do such awful
things.’ Just seemed like it was time to
turn the tables,” Lucas said with grin.
He obviously felt he had found some great line of thinking and was
anxious to try it out. “So – let’s have
it – let’s hear your proof.”
I laughed at him in a way you can only do with an old
friend. “You know that’s not my problem. You’re the one who has to prove things. If you want people to believe in God, then
the burden of proof is on you.”
“You’re just dodging the question. Everyone has a ‘burden of proof’ if they want
to make their point. We each have our
different viewpoint and if we want to argue our point, then we have an equal
burden of proof.”
“I don’t know about that, but the difference is that I don’t care if you agree with me – that’s
why I don’t have the burden of proof,” I said.
“Hah!” he smiled. “I’m
pretty sure that you really do
care. Can’t we just agree that everyone
has a burden of proof if they are trying to intelligently defend their point of
view…and then we can move on to a real discussion?”
I had to admit that he had a reasonable point, but I didn’t
feel like yielding the issue too easily.
“I’m not sure about that but, for the sake of a ‘real discussion’ as you
call it, I’ll grant that we each have an equal burden of proof…although I think
your burden of proof is more equal than mine!”
Lucas ignored my Orwellian reference. He clearly wanted to get on with his
agenda. “Fine. I’ll take that as the best I’m going to get. So, now, will you consider my original
question – how do you prove God does not
exist?”
I was a bit surprised that Lucas was expressing such a
simpleton question. He usually started
the conversation with something much more subtle and obtuse. “You know
that’s a trick question and not even worth addressing. You can’t prove a universal negative like
that.” I figured Lucas would give me
some slack regarding that last statement.
“So you admit that God could
exist?” Lucas said, seeming pleased.
I rolled my eyes. “Are
you kidding me? Is that your goal for
the day – to get me to admit that there is some miniscule chance that God
exists and then proclaim ‘then you must not be an atheist’? That’s an old lame argument Lucas – I thought
you were better than that.” I could see,
though, that he wasn’t serious – he was just trying to get me riled up.
“You know I have no interest in that. I always use a more practical definition: an
atheist is one who lives as if there
were no God. I’m not interested in
technicalities of label definitions. Actually,
I know plenty of Christians who seem to qualify as atheists based on how they live!”
I was still confused as to where Lucas was going with
this. “So what’s your point?”
Lucas thought for a moment.
“I think I’m not phrasing my question right. …I mean, you are pretty certain there is no God, right?”
“Right.”
“You’re so certain that you’d bet your life on it,
right? I mean, really, you already have bet your life on it,” Lucas said.
“I suppose you could phrase it that way. But, yes, as you know, I don’t think it is reasonable
at all to believe that God exists,” I said.
“OK – good. So, what
is it that makes you so certain? I know
you understand that I’m not asking for proof – I know you can’t give 100% proof
and neither can I – but you pretty much live your life based on the high
probability that there is no God. What
gives you the confidence to live that way?”
I kind of felt like we had talked about this before, but
it seemed like an open invitation to review the overwhelming evidence. So, I let loose with my thoughts without
bothering to be too organized. “Well,
first of all, all you have to do is look around. Where is God in anything you see? I don’t imagine there are leprechauns behind
every tree and I don’t imagine there is God behind every bush. When I look around, I don’t make things
up. Everything is natural and
logical. If there is an eclipse of the
sun, I don’t freak out and think it is God at work – I know it is just the
natural orbiting pattern of the planets.
I think it rains because of the weather patterns – ultimately based on
laws of physics. I don’t think it rains
because some grandma somewhere prayed for it to rain. I’m a scientist – so are you – and science has
eliminated the need for explaining things through myths and fairy tales and by
invoking supernatural beings. I don’t need God to go through life. Adding some idea of God just adds a lot of
complication needlessly. I’ve never
found the need to bring God in.”
“Good,” Lucas said, “now we’re getting somewhere. So you think science explains everything.”
“I’m not sure that I would phrase it as ‘science’ explains
everything. But we understand that
everything around us is a natural process and so there is a no need to bring
God into our explanations.”
“Great. So how does
science explain human consciousness?”
“I figured you’d go there.
Actually, I’m kind of surprised you didn’t ask me to explain human free
will.”
“I wanted to,” he said with a smile, “but I know you don’t
think there is such a thing as free will.
But everyone agrees there is such a thing as human consciousness.”
“I admit that human consciousness doesn’t have a really
good explanation yet. But there is
plenty of work on that. Just because we
can’t explain it beginning to end doesn’t mean that we just throw up our hands
and say ‘oh – it must be God at work.’”
“So, basically you believe that science will explain
everything that hasn’t been explained?
Doesn’t that take a lot of faith?
Sounds like a religious belief to me.”
I knew Lucas was trying to get in one of his favorite
digs. “I know you like to call it ‘faith’
because it makes you feel better. But
we’re talking about a logical pattern of human thinking that has carried on for
probably thousands of years but certainly for the past five hundred years. As man has carefully explored the universe,
he has discovered that there are logical and natural explanations for the things he sees. The track record of science is overwhelming
here. It’s not just that science has
done a good job of explaining a few things.
Almost everything has already
been shown to fit into the logical framework of physics. So, yes, I feel very confident that the few
remaining ‘unknowns’ will eventually be explained based on those same laws of
physics. Or maybe it will require new
laws of physics. But the point is, the
explanations will be based on nature, not God.
I’m standing on a very solid foundation here. I know you don’t like it, but it’s not
‘faith’ – it’s based on the overwhelming evidence of the past.”
“So is science going to explain the resurrection of
Jesus?” Lucas asked.
“Science doesn’t have to explain ancient myths. But what science does show is that when we
see or experience something unexpected – something you might call a ‘miracle’ –
we find that it has a natural explanation.
Like an eclipse, as I mentioned before.”
“There’s a natural explanation for someone rising from the
dead?”
“Well, there might be.
But in the case you’re talking about, it is clear that it didn’t happen
the way you think it did. I mean who
knows if Jesus was even real.”
Lucas didn’t take my bait on my last statement. “How do you know how it happened? You weren’t there.”
“Right, and neither were you. But, unlike you, I stand on the strong and
firm foundation of science and history.
We know now that there is no such thing as miracles. If someone is truly dead, they stay
dead. Again, the evidence there is
overwhelming. All of human history tells
us that. And science has helped explain
why that is. So when someone tells me
that something happened that I know can’t
happen, I don’t just so ‘oh, well, I guess five hundred years of science should
be thrown out the window because you just saw a ghost.’ That’s foolishness. When you try to tell me that someone 2000
years ago came to life after being dead for a few days, I don’t take it
seriously at all. I know you’d like to
believe it happened, but it never happened and never will happen.” I felt a little bad at pushing Lucas’s
buttons, but then, he was the one who brought it up. I was just here for a nice friendly lunch.
“Perfect then,” Lucas said with some finality, “there are
no miracles. There never have been any
miracles in the past and there never will be any miracles in the future.” He looked at me for some confirmation, but I
said nothing. “Right?” he challenged.
“Look, I can go through my day without needing to invoke
any existence of a God or miracles or any other supernatural event. I’m sorry that you don’t agree, but there is
just no such thing as a miracle.
Everything has a natural explanation, not a supernatural one.”
“So, in the whole entire universe, there is nothing
supernatural.”
“Everything is nature.”
“And you’re sure of that even though you haven’t been
everywhere in the universe.”
I was a little frustrated with Lucas at this point. “Now you’re back to looking for proof. Of course I haven’t looked everywhere. Neither have you. But as far as everything that every human
being has looked into for as long as history has been recorded, there is no finding
of a ‘super-nature’. Everything is just
‘nature.’ Have you looked and found some
‘super-nature’ under a rock somewhere?”
“Actually yes.” Lucas
brightened, “I found ‘super-nature’ behind a big rock in front of a tomb in
Jerusalem.”
Lucas was impressed with himself, I could see. I was not.
I just rolled my eyes. “Can we just
eat?” I asked.
“Sure,” he said.
“Let me just summarize: there is only nature and there is no such thing
as anything ‘supernatural’, no such thing as a miracle, and no such thing as
God. There never has been and there
never will be. Is that about right?”
“Sounds good. I
hope you’re satisfied,” I said. “I’ll be
more satisfied when I can finish this sandwich!”
“OK. We’ll talk
more next time.”
“Oh, I really can’t wait!” I said…lying.