Lunches with Lucas VII

 [This is a continuing conversation...to start at the beginning, click here]

            I sat at the table, waiting for Lucas to arrive.  After our last lunchtime conversation, I had been doing some thinking and I was ready to seriously consider something he had been bugging me about for years.  Or maybe I was about to call his bluff!  I really wasn't sure which.

 

             "OK - I'm willing," I pronounced, as Lucas took his seat across from me.

 

             Usually Lucas was the one to get the conversation going.  It drove me crazy sometimes.  So he was caught off guard by my statement.  "Willing what?" he asked, clearly confused.

 

             "I've decided that being a 'hardened skeptic' of miracles makes more sense than categorically denying any possibility of miracles," I said.  I had been considering this for some time.  There was a part of me that felt like Lucas had made some good logical points in the past and that it didn't make sense to reject miracles a priori, and then only allow God, if there was a God, to be forced to use miracles as the only means of communication.  That was a cosmic Catch 22 - as long as you put aside the question of whether some all-powerful God could ever be caught in a Catch 22!  But there was also a larger part of me that wanted to see where he was going with his whole train of thought.  Maybe, if I could call his bluff, he would stop badgering me about it.

 

             "Really?" Lucas was clearly pleased.  "What changed your mind?"

 

             "I considered what you said," though I hated admitting it.  "Besides, it seems a bit exciting...maybe even a bit freeing," I said, surprising myself with that last statement.

 

             "That great!" Lucas said enthusiastically.   "Now God can talk to you!"

 

             Lucas was already having too much fun with this.  Maybe I shouldn't have admitted it to him.  "Well, I still don't hear anything," I said.

 

             "I do," Lucas said, intently.

 

             "What - you hear voices?" I said skeptically.

 

             "Yes - I hear you saying 'I still don't hear anything'."  Lucas said, smiling

 

             I rolled my eyes.  "That's dumb.  But I gave your God an opening.  I said I would allow for some remote possibility of miracles.  But I don't see any fireworks and I don't hear any profound voices."

 

             "How can you hear if you don't stop talking?" Lucas asked.

 

             I paused for a moment.  I pursed my lips and cupped my hands by my ears and looked up.  I mockingly waited for a few seconds.  "No, not a peep," I challenged.

 

             "No - I mean really stop talking - like for a whole day."

 

             "A whole day?  Take a vow of silence?  Become a monk?  I finally agree to allow for miracles and now you're making me a monk?"  I didn't get what Lucas was driving at.

 

             "No - not a monk.  But I mean a real day of solitude and listening.  I mean a day where you're away from everything and everyone.  I know of a great place you could go and I think you would really enjoy it." Lucas said, turning practical for once.

 

             "Haha - like being 'in tune with nature'...become like Thoreau?" I asked.

 

             "Well, kind of actually.  But more like being in tune with super-nature!" he said, seeming pleased with his turn of phrase.  "I own that cabin out in the woods and it's a great place to go."

 

             "Oh right.  So is this going to help me see God or hear God or something?"

 

             "Well, actually, it might!" Lucas said, as if he really believed it.  "I just think our lives are too busy for us to contemplate the important things in life.  Clearing your brain is important."

 

             "Well, on that we can agree.  To be honest, it does sound kind of refreshing."

 

             "In my experience, God never resorts to yelling.  He speaks softly.  And so if we never find time for solitude and quiet, we'll never hear his voice," Lucas said.

 

             "Your God is Harry Truman?"

 

             Lucas laughed a bit.  "So...how about it?  Are you ready to do this?"

 

             "Sure," I said.  Though, of course, I wasn't really sure.  But a day away seemed really good to me right now.  I wouldn't have done it on my own.  I just would never make that time.  And I could blame it on Lucas now.

 

             "I just have one thing to ask you to do," Lucas added.

 

             "What?  Homework?  I thought this was supposed to be refreshing," I said.

 

             "During your time of solitude, I want you to ask God to tell you what he's going to do for you," Lucas stated, matter-of-factly.

 

             "What in the world?" I asked. 

 

             "Yes - just a simple request.  Tell God he has to make it obvious to you."

 

             "You think God is really going to talk to me?" I asked, a bit incredulous.  I was looking for a nice weekend alone - not some strange experience. 

 

             "Yes, actually, I really do think God is going to talk to you."

 

             "Well," I laughed, "that would be some kind of miracle right there!"

 

             "Of course it would" Lucas said, and added "enough of a miracle for you to believe in him?

 

             I ignored Lucas' last comment.  He was always pushing me in that direction.  "I mean, I don't hear voices.  Are you talking about hearing an audible voice?"

 

             "I'm talking about a mental state in which you are convinced of something.  Sometimes the most obvious things are voices, but sometimes they are not.  Those rare 'ahah' moments aren't always the result of some audible voice.  But they can be life-changing," Lucas explained.

 

             I wasn't sure I got what he was talking about.  "I'm not sure I get it."

 

             "You will," he said, smiling confidently.

 

             I was a bit intrigued by this discussion.  "You expect some magic is going to happen?"  Then I turned a bit skeptical as I thought about it and remembered I would be in his cabin.  "What - have you installed some kind of intercom equipment in your cabin in the woods so you can 'speak the words of God' to me?"

 

             "No - no intercom," Lucas said.  "Actually, there's nothing there - not even internet."

 

             "No internet?"

 

             "No cell phones either."

 

             "What do you mean?  Is this so remote that there is no cell phone service?"

 

             "It might be, actually," Lucas said, "but part of this agreement is that you have to leave your cell phone at home.  No distractions."

 

             Maybe this wasn't such a great idea.  "Come on.  I need my phone.  What if I have to call someone?  What if some crazy serial killer lives next door?"

 

             "Oh good grief," Lucas said, rolling his eyes.  "Pretend like it's 1980.  You can live for one day without your precious cell phone."

 

             I was becoming a bit apprehensive about the whole thing.            

 

             Lucas picked up my phone off the table and started stroke it with his fingers. "My precious...my precious," he mocked.

 

             "Oh - stop that!  I'm not controlled by my phone!" I protested.

 

             "Good," Lucas said with finality.  "Here's the key."

 

 

 ...on to Lucas VIII

 

Lunches with Lucas VI

 [This is a continuing conversation...to start at the beginning, click here]

 

“Hey - it's been a while - great to see you again!” Lucas exclaimed as I walked toward our familiar table.

“Yes - too long, my friend," I said as I shook his hand, and sat down at the table.  "I guess you were too busy for me” I kidded him, knowing that we were both at fault for the lapse in time.

“Too busy?  I've been waiting here for months!” Lucas said with a smile.  

“Hey look, they have new menus,” I said, glancing down at the table.  "Maybe I'll see if there's something different that I want to order."  I opened up the new menu and started reading, although, to be honest, I didn't really remember if I had ever looked at the old one.  I glanced up and saw that Lucas was just staring at me with a smirk.

"What?" I asked.

"We both know that you are going to order corned beef on rye.  Stop pretending you won't," Lucas exclaimed, laughing at me.

"Maybe I will order soup, just to spite you."

"Hah!  You can't.  You're a creature of habit.  Just admit it," Lucas jabbed as the waitress came over.

Now I was conflicted.  I wanted to prove Lucas wrong.  But what was better than the corned beef on rye?  Why waste money on something I didn't like as much?  But getting back at Lucas and showing I was not just a creature of habit seemed more than worth it.

"The usual?" the waitress asked.

"No, I'll have...." I looked down at the menu again.  Tomato soup?  A BLT?  I felt the pressure of needing to make a decision over something so simple.  So, with an air of smugness at proving Lucas wrong, I finally said "I'll have your corned beef on rye...with extra horseradish please," and sat back.

"So...the usual." the waitress said, and turned away.

Lucas let it pass without comment.  Of course, the fact was, he had ordered his usual too.  What a boring pair of friends we were!  "I think we need a spark of creativity in our lunches!" I said with a smile, "Let's talk about something we've never talked about before."

Lucas seemed ready for that and immediately asked "How about the news about the man who died and then came back to life?"

"Well, that's certainly random, though hardly creative.  I mean, people have been reporting near-death experiences for years.  I remember reading a book a few years ago about a neurosurgeon who had one of those experiences - it was pretty interesting."

"No, I'm talking about the guy who was dead for four days!" Lucas exclaimed.

"What in the world are you talking about?  Did someone post that on Facebook or something?  Because everyone knows that Facebook is the source or real truth," I derided.

"No, as you know, I don't do Facebook.  Actually I read it in a book."

"A book?  What book? " I retorted.

"The book is called 'John'" Lucas said, with a look of finality.

"John?  Never heard of it - who wrote it?  Is this some book that just came out?"  This seemed like a strange conversation to me.  Had he gone off the deep end in the weeks since the last time we had lunch together?  I should not have suggested a 'creative' lunch topic.  This once more reinforced in me that being a creature of habit was generally a good strategy in life!

"Actually, the book was written about 2000 years ago.  Some people refer to it as the Gospel of John..."

"Are you kidding?" I interrupted.  "We meet for lunch after a few months of not getting together and the best you can come up with is to pretend that the resurrection of Jesus happened yesterday?"  Maybe I was a creature of habit with respect to my lunch menu, but Lucas was certainly a creature of habit when it came to bringing up some random topic from the Bible.

"Actually, I was referring to the raising of Lazarus.  And just because something happened long ago doesn't mean it isn't important," Lucas said.

I wasn't going to keep this conversation going, but the mention of Lazarus sparked a memory of a time years ago when I had looked into that event and recalled there was some good retort about it.  What was it?  Suddenly, from the cobwebs of my brain I remembered what it was.  Now I could turn the tables and get something over on Lucas.  "Doesn't the Bible say that you need two or three witnesses to confirm something?" I challenged.

Lucas looked shocked that I would be challenging him about something from the Bible.  "Well...yes it does...why?"

"Well, as I recall, your 'amazing' story about Lazarus is only recorded in your 'book' of John and not anywhere else in the Bible -  or any other book in the entire world, for that matter - so you only have one witness, and he was obviously pretty biased," I proclaimed, quite proud of myself for remembering that detail.

Lucas actually seemed pleased at my response.  "You're right!  I'm impressed you knew that."

"Thank you"

"So, what you're telling me is you need more witnesses before you would believe a miracle?" Lucas asked.

"A lot more!"

"Okay - what about the time Jesus fed 5000 people with just a few bits of bread and fish?  I mean, at least 5000 people saw that, plus the disciples and Jesus...plus it's recorded in all four gospels, so that means at least 5000+10+1+2 = 5013 people saw it." 

I ignored his goofy math.  "I'd like to talk to those 5000 people and confirm that story...but I can't...because they're all dead and they've been dead for 2000 years, assuming they existed at all!  That's not real evidence.  Lots of people have claimed lots of impossible things in history.  I don't believe any of them and neither would you if you really thought about it.  Let's talk about something else."

"So, it's not just a lot of witnesses - you need a miracle to happen today, not yesterday," Lucas persisted.

"No - I just need something current.  You're bringing up ancient history.  There's no way to substantiate things that happened so long ago."

"Have you ever heard of Brother Yun?"  Lucas asked.

"Are you changing the subject?  Because, if you are, I'm all for it.  But, no, I've never heard of him."

"He wrote a book about his experiences called 'Heavenly Man'.  It's pretty interesting.  He fasted without food and water for 74 days while in prison and survived.  How about that for a miracle?" Lucas challenged.

"No water for 74 days?  That's impossible, as you know," I stated.

"Impossible...or a miracle.  He's still alive.  Does that count as current enough for you?"

"Have you met this guy?"

"No, but I think he lives in the US now," Lucas said, as if it was helpful.

"You can't believe every goofy story you read in a book and I'm not about to waste my life chasing down everyone's crazy story I hear, just to confirm it was false.  How can you possibly believe that such a story is true?  Did you check it on Snopes?" I asked.

"Actually, I'm not sure if it's true either," Lucas admitted, "but my point is that for you to believe some event like that, it would need to have witnesses, be current, and...you would need the person to be sitting right in front of you.  You need to be able to grill the person yourself, right?"

"Yes, for something that never happened - they better be sitting right in front of me - and even then I'm skeptical.  They'd have to be able to show me proof," I said.

"OK, well, I'm sitting right here and I know you're well aware of how God miraculously intervened in my cancer diagnosis.  Is that sufficient proof?"  Lucas asked.

Now the conversation was becoming uncomfortable.  I certainly remembered the time Lucas had been diagnosed with cancer and then, at an appointment to prepare for chemotherapy, they found no trace of cancer.  Personally, I considered it a "medical mistake", but of course Lucas considered it a miracle.  At the time I was just happy for him and I didn't mind him claiming God cured him.  I was just happy he didn't have cancer.  But I didn't think it was very considerate of him to bring that up now and try to use it to paint me into a corner.  "Well..." I started.

But Lucas sensed he had gone a bit too far and intervened.  "I get it - you view it differently than I do.  And I know we're friends and all, and it happened to me and not to you.  What you really need is to experience something like this yourself."

I wasn't sure that was completely true.  Lucas continued "I mean, at least if it happens to you, then you don't have to worry about trying to determine if someone is telling the truth."

"I don't know if it has to happen to me, specifically - but I would have to be totally convinced of the truth of it," I said.

"But if you're not convinced that I was telling the truth about my cancer diagnosis, then it seems like the only one you would really believe is yourself," Lucas said, but not in an accusatory tone.

"I believe you're telling the truth," I said, backtracking a bit.  I didn't really want to get into an argument about that event - it was too personal for both of us.  "I mean..." I paused as I searched for an example.  "I'm just not going to stop drinking for 74 days and see if your God keeps me alive!" I said, trying to change the focus of the conversation.

Lucas seemed happy enough to take the conversation in a different direction.  He laughed "no, I wouldn't recommend trying to go without eating or drinking for a couple of months!  And I can't blame you for really needing to be fully convinced.  All the things I talked about happened to someone else, not to you.  So..." Lucas paused, "what about the miracle that you can personally experience every day whenever you want?"

"Right" I said sarcastically.  "I just conjure it up and 'poof', there it is."

"Well, your human ability to exhibit free will is exactly that kind of miracle," Lucas said, as if he really believed it.  "Think about it - it's the perfect miracle that you can test at any time."

"Oh good grief - that's ridiculous.  Just because things like free will aren't fully explained scientifically, it doesn't mean you can put them in the category of 'miracles'.  Even you don't really believe that," I said, challenging him.

"Ah yes - an AYUNE" Lucas said with a smile.

"What?"

"An AYUNE - as yet unexplained natural event," Lucas said.

I rolled my eyes.  "Oh, right, you've used that ridiculous expression before."

"It's fine - I understand why you don't want to view something like free will as being a miracle.  It seems too obvious to us - too natural," Lucas conceded.  "But do you see what you've done here?"

"Yes I see what I've done - I've totally forgotten how painful lunches with you can be," I said with a smile.

Lucas ignored the dig.  "You keep moving the bar."

"What 'bar'?"

"I mean first you needed more witnesses - then you needed something current not old - then you needed to be able to talk to the individual directly - and then even that is not good enough.  And when something happens that you actually experience yourself, you write it off as a natural event anyway.  You will keep moving the bar and nothing will ever be good enough to break through your disbelief," Lucas stated.

"And you say that as if my position is illogical.  But I'm the logical one here.  Most people see things the way I do.  I don't see miracles around every corner or every time I exercise my 'free will' like you do," I said, using air quotes around free will because I knew that really bugged Lucas.  "And I'm comfortable with that."

"My point is that the reason you don't believe in anything supernatural is because you don't want to believe, not because of any lack of evidence.  You've set up your whole concept of the world so that it is impossible for there to be any evidence of the supernatural.  And then you say everything is natural - nothing is supernatural," Lucas pressed.

"There is no evidence for the supernatural," I responded, as our food arrived.

"No - the fact is that you won't allow there to be evidence."

"OK, fine," I said, "I don't believe because I don't want to believe - is that what you want me to say?"

"Well - isn't that true?" Lucas asked.

"So...I said it.  Let's move on to some 'boring' topic of conversation," I said, taking a bite of my corned beef and letting the horseradish clear my mind.  "How's work going for you?"

 

[On to Lucas VII]

 

 

 

 

Lunches with Lucas – Session V

[This is a continuing conversation...to start at the beginning, click here]

“So – did you think about it?” Lucas queried as I sat down at the table, completely dispensing with any pleasantries.

“I had a great week – how about you?” I said, ignoring him.  “At the very least you should be considerate enough to give me time to look at the menu” I said with a smile.

“Hah!  Neither one of us has looked at the menu in years!” Lucas said.  “Do they even have a menu?”

“Well, anyway, I wasn’t aware that I had homework from my good friend and lunch partner.  If I wanted homework, I’d go back to school,” I said.  “What was it I was supposed to do this time?”

“I know you haven’t forgotten!  I asked you to consider changing your view of the world from “there are no such things as miracles” to “miracles are extremely unlikely but can’t be ruled out,”” Lucas said. 

I was hoping he would have moved on from that topic.  So I ignored his challenge and went straight to what I knew he was trying to get at.  “Like I said before – that’s God’s problem.  If he wants me to believe, then bring it on – let’s see it!”

Lucas shrunk back a bit and I was surprised by the intensity of his expression.  “Oooh.  I’m not sure I would say that” he said with a serious expression.  But he continued “Fine – let me try an analogy out on you.”

“OK – go ahead – this ought to be interesting,” I said.

“Let’s say you go to the doctor and he tells you that you have cancer.  Whose problem is that?” Lucas asked, but didn’t wait for me to respond.  “Using your line of reasoning, you would say it is the “doctor’s problem.”  And sure, you may be relying on the doctor to come up with a cure for you, so in some sense it is the ‘doctor’s problem.’  But the fundamental problem is yours – you are the one who has cancer!” Lucas said, emphasizing the word “yours.”

“OK – yes – I understand what you are saying,” I granted him, as our drinks arrived at the table.  “But your analogy breaks down on many levels.”

“Well, it is just an analogy, but let’s hear it,” Lucas challenged.

“First of all, I’m not the one with the problem.  God has the problem – apparently – because he wants me to believe in him for some reason.  I personally don’t care if he believes in me – so that’s why I say it’s his problem.”

“You don’t think you have a problem??” Lucas asked with a bit of incredulity.

“Oh, I have plenty of problems – like that fact that my good friend Lucas wants me to believe in old fairy tales about miracles – but I’m not expecting God to solve them,” I said.

“Who’s going to solve your problems?”

“Hah hah!  Not you obviously,” I said.  “I’m going to solve my own problems – or at least I’m going to keep trying.  I’m just like everyone else.  We’re all in the same boat – including you – we are all responsible for solving our own problems.  If I wait for some mysterious deity to solve my problems, I’ll be waiting for a long time and my problems will just get worse.”

“I agree with you that everyone is responsible for themselves.  But there are some problems that we can’t solve ourselves – we need help.  I know you’re not a hermit – you need other people too.”  Then Lucas smiled, “like me – you couldn’t have such a stimulating lunch conversation on your own!”

“Eating a nice quiet lunch?  Doesn’t sound too bad,” I said, pretending to mull it over.  “And yes, I may need other people to help me, but it is my responsibility to go and ask for their help.”

“Well…you need someone to love you – that’s a basic need. And that requires another person to do something that you can’t control,” challenged Lucas.  “You can’t just go and ask them to love you.”

“Sounds like you’re getting into song lyrics,” I said, not wanting to give in, but feeling like this wasn’t really going the direction I wanted to take it.  “Anyway, that’s not the only problem with your analogy.  In fact, the biggest problem is that a doctor is not like your all-knowing God that you say exists.  Your analogy breaks down because any doctor, no matter how good they are and no matter what they think about themselves, they are not all-knowing,” I said.

Lucas smiled and I knew he was about to make some joke, but he didn’t.  “Go on,” he said.

“Well, the God you believe in apparently knows everything – right?  And if he knows everything, then I shouldn’t have to go to him to find out I have cancer.  He already knows I have cancer.  He should come and find me and just take care of it.  It would be a pretty mean God if he knows that I have cancer and doesn’t do something about it and just leaves me to die of it,” I said.

“That’s a great line of reasoning.  In that case, God should just keep you from getting cancer in the first place,” Lucas said.

“Sounds good to me,” I exclaimed.

“But obviously God doesn’t do that.  There is cancer.”  Lucas said.

Seemed like Lucas was setting his own trap.  “Thus proving that your God does not exist,” I exclaimed.

“No – your God does not exist.  The God I believe in obviously doesn’t act the way you think he does.”

“What do you mean by that?” I asked.

“Well, you’re describing a God who is willing to force his way into people’s lives and take care of everything.  Obviously, no such God exists because there are plenty of things that are not “taken care of” in this world, including cancer.  However, one of the key characteristics of the God that Christians believe in is that he doesn’t force people to believe.  In fact, he waits for an invitation.”

“Hmmph.  That seems too convenient.  You get to pick whatever characteristics you want to ascribe to your God so that he can’t be discovered.”  That always bothered me.

“I didn’t pick those characteristics.  It’s fundamental to my beliefs.  In fact there are number of passages in the Bible that describe this very characteristic of God.  For example, Jesus said “I stand at the door and knock” and he waits to be let in. That perfectly illustrates my point.  God waits to be invited in.”

“Sounds weak to me,” I exclaimed.

“God is certainly strong enough to break down the door and come storming in.  But he chooses to wait for an invitation.  You can call that weak if you want.   I say that it sometimes requires more strength to exercise such restraint than it does just to barge on in,” Lucas said.

“OK – fine.  But that still doesn’t explain how it is reasonable for God, knowing I have cancer, not to even tell me,” I said, trying to get back to my main point.

“Actually God thinks – knows – that every human being has a problem much worse than cancer.  And he tries to tell you all, but you won’t listen.  The thing God does not do is keep yelling until you do listen.  If you want to listen, he’s there.  If you don’t want to listen, then, as I said at the beginning, that’s your problem.  He will not force himself.  It is beneath God to have to grovel to human beings.”

“OK.  I’ll listen.”  I paused for a mock dramatic moment of silence.  “I don’t hear anything.”

“Now we are finally getting somewhere!” Lucas said excitedly, surprising me a bit.  “That is exactly the point I’m trying to get you to see.  The first step in listening is for you to allow some crack in your “no miracles, no supernatural” view of the world.  You don’t hear anything because you’ve covered your ears.  Figuratively, I mean,” Lucas injected as I waved my hands away from my head showing my ears were, indeed open.  “You don’t really allow yourself to hear anything supernatural.  As long as you reject all means that God might use to get your attention, then he has no means of talking to you.  If he is not willing to force you to believe – and I believe he does not force anyone – then the next move is yours.”

It still seemed to me that this was all God’s problem.  But Lucas’ line of reasoning seemed reasonable on the face of it.  It all seemed like kind of a cosmic Catch 22.  I was going to have to think about it.

Lucas could see I was waffling a bit.  “Think about your relationship with your wife.  Can you force her to love you?”

“No – certainly not.”

“And even if you could force her to love you, what kind of love would that be?  God wants a relationship with each one of us.  But he wants a willing relationship.  Sure he could force us to do whatever he wants…but what kind of a relationship is that?  If God forces us to believe in him, what kind of belief is that?” Lucas asked.

“I see your point…” I said, still trying to think this thing through.  “…still seems highly convenient that God wiggles out of the blame.”

“I know you would like to be able to blame God for your unbelief but you really can't.  In fact, the reality is you don't really want a God that you could blame for your unbelief.  Such a God would be a controlling ogre,” Lucas said.  Then he continued, “How about if I just ask you to make this one change:  stop saying that it is God’s fault you don’t believe and start accepting some of the blame yourself.”

“Ouch.  Sounds harsh,” I said.

Lucas relaxed a bit and his face softened.  “Yeah, I’m sorry, it is a bit harsh.”  He paused for a moment.  “I think it’s time to eat.”

The corned beef arrived at the perfect time, as far as I was concerned.  Too much to take into consideration.

[...on to session VI...]

Lunches with Lucas – Session IV

<This is part of an ongoing conversation.  To go to the first conversation, click here>

I was a bit intrigued by my last conversation with Lucas, and I was kind of interested to know where he was going with the points he was making.  Interested, I would say, in the same way you are interested to see an accident up ahead.  Curious is maybe a better word.  And I knew Lucas well enough that I thought I could just get straight to the point and he wouldn’t be put off by that.

I sat down across from Lucas for lunch.  “Lucas, it really seems to me that you’ve been trying to drive to some big point…so just get to it – what is the point to this discussion about miracles and natural events and so on?”

“OK – fine.  You asked,” Lucas smiled.  “I want you to tell God – no – tell Jesus - to do a miracle in your life, I want you to see the miracle, and, as a result, I want you to completely and fully commit yourself to following Jesus for the rest of your life”, he said, fairly matter-of-factly.

Maybe I should have let him keep building up slowly!  “You can’t be serious,” I said, searching his expression.

“Well…maybe I shouldn’t have gone so far,” he said, backtracking a bit.  “Really, all I’m asking is that you change your worldview from “there is no such thing as miracles” to “miracles are extremely unlikely but can’t be ruled out.”

I wasn’t going to let him off the hook so easily.  “Wait a minute - what about this “tell God what to do” thing you just said?”

Now he was in a full retreat.  “OK, look, I overstated my point to try to get you to think about what I have been challenging you with.  Obviously you can’t tell God what to do.”

“Actually, Lucas, you can tell God what to do,” I said, feeling a bit proud that I could make a point about spiritual things.  “People tell God what to do all the time.  The problem is that there is no God to hear anyone, so that is why nothing happens.”  I figured if Lucas could be blunt, so could I.

“OK – I’m sorry I brought it up.  And not to belabor the point, but it’s not true that ‘nothing happens’ when you talk to God,” Lucas said, belaboring the point.  “Lots of people have asked God to do something and he has done it.”

“Yah, well, lots of people have asked God to do something and he hasn’t done it.  That proves nothing,” I said.

“That’s a valid point.  But the problem is that no matter what God does, you’ve set up a situation where you can always rule out the possibility that God exists.”

“What do you mean?” I asked.

“Let me put it this way:  can you design an experiment that you could do that would cause you to believe in God…or, again, more specifically, Jesus?”

“How can you do an experiment with God – you just said you can’t tell God what to do,” I asked.

“My point is that if such an experiment were designed, it would certainly have to involve a miracle, and you don’t accept that there can be any such a thing as a miracle.  Therefore, you reject God and no amount of evidence would ever change your mind,” Lucas challenged.

“Evidence?  There is no evidence,” I challenged back.

“What I mean is that you are unwilling to put your lack of belief in God to a test because you have eliminated all possible ways God could reveal himself to you a priori.”

“Unwilling?  I didn’t say I was unwilling to see evidence – I just don’t see any,” I said.

“Sorry – wrong word choice.  It’s more that you prevent God from revealing himself to you because you have eliminated all possible ways God could do that.”

“Whatever.  I don’t see what you’re getting at.  I feel like we’re going in circles.”  Hadn’t he said this before?  Besides, it didn’t make any sense to me that any human being could “prevent” his so-called God from doing anything.  But I didn’t want to bring that up and prolong the conversation.

“So – what about my challenge?” Lucas said, ignoring my comment.  “Consider just changing your worldview from “there is no such thing as a miracle” to “miracles are extremely unlikely but can’t be ruled out.  Then people like me can no longer say that you’ve ruled God out without ever giving him a chance.”

On the face of it, it seemed like a small change but I wanted to stall him.  I wasn’t ready to change anything.  Why should I change?  I was winning the argument.  “I hate the word ‘worldview’” I said, stalling.  But I really did hate that word.

“You’re just stalling,” he said, recognizing what I was doing.  “So, then, how about changing your ‘philosophy of life’ to include the remote possibility of a miracle, or, more specifically, intentional divine intervention?” he asked.

“Well, it would have to be a really really really remote possibility,” I countered.

“Of course.  Almost by definition, a miracle has to be very rare – extremely rare – otherwise it kind of becomes just a natural event,” Lucas agreed.

I had to admit that there was some logic in what he was asking me to do.  “OK.  I will take it under consideration,” I said.

“No problem,” Lucas smiled, “let me make the decision harder for you.”

“Oh great,” I said, a bit surprised.

“You recall our conversation about the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ?” Lucas asked.

“Not much.  To be honest, it’s not something I’ve committed to memory.  I mean, how can you present ‘evidence’ for something that doesn’t exist?  I thought we agreed to put that aside.” 

“Hah!  You do remember – or at least you remember that we agreed not to talk about it again.  But you didn’t listen to my arguments because you’d already decided that a resurrection can’t happen – it never happens.

“Sounds about right,” I said.  “Case closed,” I added, hoping he would move on.

“Well…if you change your philosophy of life to allow for the very remote possibility of miracles, then you’re going to have to consider those arguments.  Previously you didn’t care what I said about it – because you had already eliminated the possibility of any miracle ever happening – particularly someone rising from the dead.  But now, even if the possibility if very very remote, you can’t just reject the concept off-hand like you did before.”

“Well, I haven’t changed my mind,” I said, almost adding “yet” but decided not to.  “Is this whole discussion part of some grand plan of yours to bring up that whole conversation about the evidence for the resurrection again?  Count me out.”

“No, no, I promised I wouldn’t bring that up again, so I won’t,” Lucas said, then paused.  “Unless you ask,” he added, smiling.

“Well, that’s not happening.  So let’s move on.  It’s time to eat.”

“Yes, we can move on.  But I still want you to consider allowing for the remote possibility of miracles.”

“Do you ever give up?”  I was a bit tired of this, but couldn’t think of a good reason not to crack.  “If I agree, will you let me eat?”

“If you agree, I’ll pay for lunch!  But I’m serious.  This is a big decision…I know it’s not as simple as it sounds.”  Lucas said, backing off a bit.

“You’re right.  I’ll take it under consideration,” I said.  But I had no intention of considering it. 

I picked up my corned beef sandwich and changed the subject. 

[...on to Session V...]

Lunches with Lucas – Session III

 <Link to Session I>

         As I stepped into the restaurant, I saw that Lucas was already at our accustomed table.  That was pretty unusual, as usually I was the one who arrived first.  As I approached the table, I could see that he appeared to be talking to himself.

          “Hey Lucas,” I said, “who are you talking to?”

          “Oh – hi – I was just talking to God here,” he said, motioning to the empty chair.

          I thought about leaving, just to teach him a lesson.  “It’s an empty chair…”

          “Why can’t God be invisible?” Lucas asked.

          “That’s so childish.  God could be a chair, too, but that doesn’t mean anything.”

          “You’re right, that is kind of childish on my part.  But last time you talked about God appearing to you in this chair and said that would be enough to believe.  Isn’t that a little childish also – or at least a little selfish?”  Lucas asked.

          “What do you mean ‘selfish’?” I asked, taking my seat.

          “Well, it’s seems like you’ve only answered the question as if you were the only person that God needed to worry about,” Lucas said, drawing out the word ‘only’.  “If God’s going to do a miracle so that you will believe, doesn’t he have to do the same miracle for everyone else as well?  Otherwise, it’s just not fair and I know that you’re very worried about God being fair.”

          “Sure – what’s the problem with that?  God can appear in chairs to everyone, and then everyone would believe in him and I guess that would make him happy and you happy,” I retorted.

          “But that’s way too glib.  You aren’t really seriously thinking that through.  That whole concept just doesn’t work.  You think it is childish that I would say that God is in that chair but he’s just invisible, and you’re right – it’s childish.  But so is saying that if God appeared in chairs to everyone, it would make everyone believe in him,” Lucas said.

         

          “Childish?  You’re the one who believes in some God that you’ve never seen!” I exclaimed.

          “All I’m asking is that you give your ‘appear in a chair’ a little more serious consideration.  God is not just concerned about you.  If there is a God anything like the one I believe in, then he is concerned about everyone – and that includes everyone who has ever lived and everyone who ever will live.  So if he’s going to get people to believe in him by appearing in chairs, he has to do it for everyone over the whole history of mankind,” Lucas said.

          “OK.  I don’t see a problem with that.”

          “You don’t see a problem with creating some event that has always happened and always will happen?  Such an event would not be considered a miracle – it would just be a ‘natural’ event – like the sun rising every morning,” Lucas stated.

          “It’s not natural for anything to just appear in a chair,” I countered.

          “No, but it would be if it had always happened and always did happen.  That is almost the very definition of a natural event.  What else could you call it?  I mean if your requested ‘miracle’ had been ‘I want a being to appear behind me on the ground whenever I walk around’ and it was something that had always happened, then you would just call it a ‘shadow’, not a miracle,” Lucas said.

          “But that makes my point.  A shadow is a perfectly natural event.  There is a clear scientific, natural explanation for why a shadow appears.  It’s not magic.  It’s not a miracle.  It’s nature.  Are you trying to prove the existence of God using shadows??” I asked, a bit incredulous.

          “Of course not,” Lucas said.  “I’m just trying to point out that no event, no matter how shocking, is going to be sufficient for you to believe in God if it is something that happens all the time.  You will always have a ‘natural’ explanation for it.”

          “Of course I will.  That is because there is only nature.  But if your God does a miracle, then there won’t be an explanation for it,” I countered.

          “What?  Did you just imply that if there is something that happens that cannot be explained by science, you would consider it a miracle?”

          I realized I was on shaky ground.  But Lucas continued without waiting for my response.  “Then how about human consciousness?  It’s not explainable by science and it is something that has always happened and probably always will happen.  It is something that every human being experiences.  Seems like a perfect miracle to show God’s existence.”

          “You love to bring up human consciousness, but that is hardly evidence for the existence of God.  We are close to understanding it – we will eventually figure it out,” I said.

          “Ah, it’s an AYUNE,” Lucas said with a smile.

          “There you go making up words again.”

          “As-yet-unexplained-natural-event,” Lucas said.

          “I know – you told me before.  But consciousness will be explained,” I said.

          “Well, I might debate that – I don’t think neuroscience is even close to explaining human consciousness.  But that’s not my point.  My point is that even if some event were to be unexplainable, you would never consider it to be a miracle,” Lucas said.

          “You’re right.  And I think I’m being pretty logical if I consider natural events to be natural events and don’t ascribe any supernatural meaning to them,” I said with an air of finality.

          “Right.  So the point is that, if God wants to prove himself to you, he cannot use any natural, repeated events, even if they are completely unexplained by modern science.  Any kind of event that he might do to demonstrate his existence, if he does it fairly for every person who has ever lived or ever will live, will be relegated to being described as a natural event.  So, as far as your views are concerned, natural events are ‘out’ for God.  You will not allow God to use them to prove his existence,” Lucas said.

          “I wouldn’t use the term ‘relegated’, but, yes, I think you are summarizing my views pretty well.  Natural events are natural, not supernatural…and you can’t try to turn them into supernatural events by saying they are unexplainable.  You Christians claim that all sorts of natural events are signs of the supernatural, like when someone recovers from cancer or something like that.  It makes no sense.  I don’t see how you can claim that natural events are the evidence for any supernatural being,” I said.

          “I get you.  I think there are Christians who ascribe supernatural significance to natural events without good evidence.  But a lot of that has to do with your starting point.  I don’t really want to get into that.  I want you to try to think about your situation from God’s viewpoint,” Lucas said, looking for some approval from me.

          “Sounds a bit strange – what do you mean?” I asked.

          “I mean, let’s say you were God and you wanted to get ‘you’ to believe – how would you do it?  If you, as God, attempt to perform some supernatural event for every person for all time, ‘you’ would just say ‘that’s a natural event.’  But ‘you’ also don’t accept that there is such a thing as a miracle, so God can’t do that either.  So what is left?  You’ve blocked out every avenue for God to show himself to you and then you stand back and say it is God’s fault for now showing himself to you,” Lucas challenged.

          I needed to think that through a bit, so I tried to put him off for now.  “OK, maybe that’s how it is.  But if your God is so great, he ought to be able to figure it out,” I countered.

          Lucas was on a roll, though.  “It’s like you’re saying to God ‘show yourself’ but then you cover your eyes.  Or you say to God ‘speak to me’ and then you cover your ears.  If you were God, why would you even bother?  If someone doesn’t want to know God with that level of intensity, then why would God bother?  Seems to me that it’s your problem, not God’s problem.”

         

          I didn’t want to talk about this further.  “Fine.  It’s my problem.  So leave me alone with my problem and let’s talk about something else.”

          Lucas nodded.  “OK – let’s eat.  All I’m asking is that you think about it from God’s perspective.  I’ll leave it at that.”

          And with that he took a big bite of his sandwich.  Despite his goofy examples, I felt he probably did make a pretty good point.  But I didn’t want to think about it too much – it was time for lunch.

[...on to Session IV...]

Lunches with Lucas – Session II

<Link to Session I>

         As Lucas approached the table, I searched his face to determine if I was in for another grilling on boring “religious” topics.  But he seemed pretty content.  “Hey Lucas, how are you doing?” I asked.

          “Pretty good – how about yourself?”

          “Great.  I’m ready for one of those huge corned beef sandwiches they have here.  Along with a nice thick layer of horseradish!”  I said.

          “Hah.  Well, I’m glad I’m not working next to you this afternoon!”

          “Horseradish keeps all the bad spirits away – makes for a very successful day” I remarked, putting in a little dig at Lucas.

          “So now you see the ‘supernatural’ everywhere after our last conversation?”

          “No – just horseradish-hating leprechauns,” I joked.  “I don’t see the supernatural in everything, like you do.”

          “So, seriously, I thought it was a pretty fruitful conversation last time,” Lucas said, turning a bit more intense.

          I realized that I had foolishly stepped in to that one.  “I guess so.  I don’t recall it being particularly earth-shattering.”

          “Well, as I recall, we concluded with your view that there is only ‘nature’ and there is no such thing as anything ‘supernatural’, no such thing as a miracle, and no such thing as God.  Would you agree?” Lucas asked.

          “Isn’t it obvious?  I’m not trying to be mean, but I just don’t see ‘God’ anywhere and I don’t see the need to invent ‘God.’  The scientific view just seems the most logical, doesn’t it?  And it seems to me that believing in God just causes people to waste their life going to church and so on.  Doesn’t seem like it does them any good.  I’m happy with my life as it is and I surely don’t need to complicate things with some belief in something that obviously isn’t there.  Like I said, if God wants me to be believe in him, that’s his problem…or ‘her’ problem…or ‘its’ problem or whatever.  It’s not my problem,” I said, hoping to close out this particular topic.

          “Well, maybe it is your problem.  I mean, if there is a God and you have to face him in the afterlife, you’re going to have to answer for why you didn’t believe in him,” Lucas challenged. 

          “First of all, that’s not going to happen because there is no God.  But I’m glad you brought that up because that’s something that really bothers me.  God has no case against me or anyone else.  It would be totally unreasonable for God to blame me for not believing in him.  It’s his fault.  If he wanted me to believe in him then he should make it more obvious.  I’m a reasonable person – if the evidence were there, then I would believe in him.  If God hides from me, and then blames me for not believing in him, I think that is a pretty unjust God.  Is that the kind of God you believe in?” I asked, fairly irritated.

Lucas’ face brightened at statement, which annoyed me.  “Are you saying that God should make himself more obvious?” he asked.

          “Absolutely.  Like I said, when I look around, I don’t see any real evidence for God.  Everything has a logical explanation.  And the reason there is no obvious evidence for God is that he isn’t there to begin with,” I said.

          “Excellent.  God should make himself obvious?” Lucas asked.

          “Yes.”

          “Good.  Now we are getting somewhere,” Lucas said, still looking pleased.

          “What are you talking about?  We haven’t gotten anywhere.  All we’ve done is establish that your belief in God is founded on no evidence whatsoever and that, if there is a God, he is totally unjust and unreasonable and not worth believing in.  That’s where we’ve gotten,” I said.

“OK – so how should God make himself obvious?” Lucas asked.

          I was a bit frustrated that we were still going on about this.  “It’s easy.  There are lots of ways God could be obvious.  I mean, he could just appear right here and get the whole thing over with,” I said, pointing at the empty chair at our table.  “It’s simple.”

“Appear?” Lucas asked.  “You mean like “poof” – there he is?”

“Yeah – something like that.  That’s all it would take,” I said.

“All you would need is some kind of appearance?” Lucas asked.

“Sure – if God can do anything, then a little sudden appearance ought to be easy.  That would make an open and shut case and then I would believe.”

“I assume you’re talking about a miraculous appearance.  I mean, it wouldn’t be enough if George Burns walked up and sat down there and said he was God, would it?” Lucas asked.

“George Burns?  Wow, you are old!  No, I’m not talking about someone just walking up and sitting down – that could happen any time.  I’m talking about an appearance.  In fact, a flash of light and a little smoke would help,” I said.

“So you want a miracle?” Lucas asked, with an air of finality.

“Yes – a simple miracle.”

“But you don’t believe in miracles,” Lucas challenged.

“I know, so that’s why I don’t believe in God.  It’s not going to happen anyway,” I said

“No, I mean you’ve told me that there can’t be any such thing as a miracle.  There are only things that seem like miracles to people in the past, but they are all explainable by scientific investigation.  You’ve told me that everything has a natural cause,” Lucas said, leaning forward.

“Right - everything is just by natural causes.  There is no hidden supernatural being behind it all.  What’s the point?” I asked.

“So even if God appears right here next to us, you wouldn’t believe.  You’d just say it was some as-yet-unexplained natural event – an “AYUNE”.  A hallucination.  Indigestion.  A unique weather event.  Something,” Lucas challenged.

I was a bit taken aback, realizing I was on a bit shakier ground than I liked.  “Well, I mean, if it was so obvious…We’re talking about a being appearing out of thin air.  That would be obvious.”

“But now you’re bending your own rules.  You mean that there can be some miracles as long as they are miraculous enough?”

“Well, I’m talking about things that could only be explained by supernatural means.  Someone appearing in the chair is a supernatural event,” I said.

“Wait a minute!  Earlier you said that everything has a natural explanation, and now you’re backtracking.”

“I’m not backtracking.  There’s no one sitting there and there never will be anyone or anything that just appears there.  The point is there are no miracles.  That’s what I’m trying to say,” I said.

“But if I understand your view correctly, you not only believe that there are no miracles, but there never could be miracles,” Lucas challenged.

“Well…” I said, trying to figure out how to explain my views. 

“You’ve told me before,” Lucas interjected “that the reason you don’t even consider that anyone has ever actually risen from the dead is that there is no such thing as miracles.  But now you’re saying that there could be miracles.  Face it – you’re waffling on your own beliefs.”

“Ok, ok.  That’s not what I meant.  I know where you want to go with that.  My point is that it’s not my problem how to figure it out – it’s God’s problem.  If he wants me to believe in him, then he’s got to blow me away with something.”

“But no matter what it is, according to what you’ve told me before, no matter how miraculous it was, you’d say it is an ‘AYUNE’.”

I didn’t like that he create some new word.  “You’re making it sound illogical, but my view is the most logical.  It’s based on scientific observation.  And since there is no God, there won’t be any violation of my views.  Besides, if your God is so great, then he’s going to have to figure it out.  It shouldn’t be hard for him.”

“So,” Lucas said, with a certain air of finality, “it is God’s responsibility to prove himself to you, but he can’t use any miraculous means because you won’t accept any miracles.  What does that leave him with?”

“What do you mean?” I asked.

“Well, if God can’t use any ‘supernatural’ means to prove Himself to you, then that only leaves natural means, right?” Lucas asked.

“Sure – he’s God – he’s got to figure it out.”

“Through natural means only?”

“Why do you say ‘through natural means only?’” I asked, a bit confused.

“Well, isn’t it basic logic to say that if everything is divided into ‘natural’ and ‘supernatural’, and you get rid of ‘supernatural’, then the only thing left is ‘natural’.”

“I guess, if that’s how you want to put it,” I said.

“So, to summarize, you are convinced there is no God because you don’t see him.  But in order for him to appear to you, it would have to be through some natural means?” Lucas asked.

“It doesn’t have to be something ‘natural’ – it just can’t be a miracle.”

“So God has to prove himself to you and he can’t use any supernatural means.  He just has to use natural means.  Is that a correct statement?”

I wasn’t really sure that sounded right, but I was ready to move on.  “Sure, if that’s how you want to phrase it, fine.  Are you happy now?” I asked, hoping to wrap this up.

“Yeah, that’s enough thinking for now.  Let’s eat,” Lucas said with a smile.

“You’re not done with this, are you?” I said.

“Hah” he said with a big smile.  “I’ve got a lot more up my sleeve.  But right now I think it’s time for that horseradish!”

“You too?  I didn’t think you liked horseradish,” I said.

“Well, with enough of that wafting into our brains, we might just see someone appear in that chair…maybe even ten someones!”

“Good luck with that!” I said as I took a good first bite and let the horseradish clear my brain from the conversation.

[On to Session III]