Lunches with Lucas – Session III

 <Link to Session I>

         As I stepped into the restaurant, I saw that Lucas was already at our accustomed table.  That was pretty unusual, as usually I was the one who arrived first.  As I approached the table, I could see that he appeared to be talking to himself.

          “Hey Lucas,” I said, “who are you talking to?”

          “Oh – hi – I was just talking to God here,” he said, motioning to the empty chair.

          I thought about leaving, just to teach him a lesson.  “It’s an empty chair…”

          “Why can’t God be invisible?” Lucas asked.

          “That’s so childish.  God could be a chair, too, but that doesn’t mean anything.”

          “You’re right, that is kind of childish on my part.  But last time you talked about God appearing to you in this chair and said that would be enough to believe.  Isn’t that a little childish also – or at least a little selfish?”  Lucas asked.

          “What do you mean ‘selfish’?” I asked, taking my seat.

          “Well, it’s seems like you’ve only answered the question as if you were the only person that God needed to worry about,” Lucas said, drawing out the word ‘only’.  “If God’s going to do a miracle so that you will believe, doesn’t he have to do the same miracle for everyone else as well?  Otherwise, it’s just not fair and I know that you’re very worried about God being fair.”

          “Sure – what’s the problem with that?  God can appear in chairs to everyone, and then everyone would believe in him and I guess that would make him happy and you happy,” I retorted.

          “But that’s way too glib.  You aren’t really seriously thinking that through.  That whole concept just doesn’t work.  You think it is childish that I would say that God is in that chair but he’s just invisible, and you’re right – it’s childish.  But so is saying that if God appeared in chairs to everyone, it would make everyone believe in him,” Lucas said.

         

          “Childish?  You’re the one who believes in some God that you’ve never seen!” I exclaimed.

          “All I’m asking is that you give your ‘appear in a chair’ a little more serious consideration.  God is not just concerned about you.  If there is a God anything like the one I believe in, then he is concerned about everyone – and that includes everyone who has ever lived and everyone who ever will live.  So if he’s going to get people to believe in him by appearing in chairs, he has to do it for everyone over the whole history of mankind,” Lucas said.

          “OK.  I don’t see a problem with that.”

          “You don’t see a problem with creating some event that has always happened and always will happen?  Such an event would not be considered a miracle – it would just be a ‘natural’ event – like the sun rising every morning,” Lucas stated.

          “It’s not natural for anything to just appear in a chair,” I countered.

          “No, but it would be if it had always happened and always did happen.  That is almost the very definition of a natural event.  What else could you call it?  I mean if your requested ‘miracle’ had been ‘I want a being to appear behind me on the ground whenever I walk around’ and it was something that had always happened, then you would just call it a ‘shadow’, not a miracle,” Lucas said.

          “But that makes my point.  A shadow is a perfectly natural event.  There is a clear scientific, natural explanation for why a shadow appears.  It’s not magic.  It’s not a miracle.  It’s nature.  Are you trying to prove the existence of God using shadows??” I asked, a bit incredulous.

          “Of course not,” Lucas said.  “I’m just trying to point out that no event, no matter how shocking, is going to be sufficient for you to believe in God if it is something that happens all the time.  You will always have a ‘natural’ explanation for it.”

          “Of course I will.  That is because there is only nature.  But if your God does a miracle, then there won’t be an explanation for it,” I countered.

          “What?  Did you just imply that if there is something that happens that cannot be explained by science, you would consider it a miracle?”

          I realized I was on shaky ground.  But Lucas continued without waiting for my response.  “Then how about human consciousness?  It’s not explainable by science and it is something that has always happened and probably always will happen.  It is something that every human being experiences.  Seems like a perfect miracle to show God’s existence.”

          “You love to bring up human consciousness, but that is hardly evidence for the existence of God.  We are close to understanding it – we will eventually figure it out,” I said.

          “Ah, it’s an AYUNE,” Lucas said with a smile.

          “There you go making up words again.”

          “As-yet-unexplained-natural-event,” Lucas said.

          “I know – you told me before.  But consciousness will be explained,” I said.

          “Well, I might debate that – I don’t think neuroscience is even close to explaining human consciousness.  But that’s not my point.  My point is that even if some event were to be unexplainable, you would never consider it to be a miracle,” Lucas said.

          “You’re right.  And I think I’m being pretty logical if I consider natural events to be natural events and don’t ascribe any supernatural meaning to them,” I said with an air of finality.

          “Right.  So the point is that, if God wants to prove himself to you, he cannot use any natural, repeated events, even if they are completely unexplained by modern science.  Any kind of event that he might do to demonstrate his existence, if he does it fairly for every person who has ever lived or ever will live, will be relegated to being described as a natural event.  So, as far as your views are concerned, natural events are ‘out’ for God.  You will not allow God to use them to prove his existence,” Lucas said.

          “I wouldn’t use the term ‘relegated’, but, yes, I think you are summarizing my views pretty well.  Natural events are natural, not supernatural…and you can’t try to turn them into supernatural events by saying they are unexplainable.  You Christians claim that all sorts of natural events are signs of the supernatural, like when someone recovers from cancer or something like that.  It makes no sense.  I don’t see how you can claim that natural events are the evidence for any supernatural being,” I said.

          “I get you.  I think there are Christians who ascribe supernatural significance to natural events without good evidence.  But a lot of that has to do with your starting point.  I don’t really want to get into that.  I want you to try to think about your situation from God’s viewpoint,” Lucas said, looking for some approval from me.

          “Sounds a bit strange – what do you mean?” I asked.

          “I mean, let’s say you were God and you wanted to get ‘you’ to believe – how would you do it?  If you, as God, attempt to perform some supernatural event for every person for all time, ‘you’ would just say ‘that’s a natural event.’  But ‘you’ also don’t accept that there is such a thing as a miracle, so God can’t do that either.  So what is left?  You’ve blocked out every avenue for God to show himself to you and then you stand back and say it is God’s fault for now showing himself to you,” Lucas challenged.

          I needed to think that through a bit, so I tried to put him off for now.  “OK, maybe that’s how it is.  But if your God is so great, he ought to be able to figure it out,” I countered.

          Lucas was on a roll, though.  “It’s like you’re saying to God ‘show yourself’ but then you cover your eyes.  Or you say to God ‘speak to me’ and then you cover your ears.  If you were God, why would you even bother?  If someone doesn’t want to know God with that level of intensity, then why would God bother?  Seems to me that it’s your problem, not God’s problem.”

         

          I didn’t want to talk about this further.  “Fine.  It’s my problem.  So leave me alone with my problem and let’s talk about something else.”

          Lucas nodded.  “OK – let’s eat.  All I’m asking is that you think about it from God’s perspective.  I’ll leave it at that.”

          And with that he took a big bite of his sandwich.  Despite his goofy examples, I felt he probably did make a pretty good point.  But I didn’t want to think about it too much – it was time for lunch.

[...on to Session IV...]

Lunches with Lucas – Session II

<Link to Session I>

         As Lucas approached the table, I searched his face to determine if I was in for another grilling on boring “religious” topics.  But he seemed pretty content.  “Hey Lucas, how are you doing?” I asked.

          “Pretty good – how about yourself?”

          “Great.  I’m ready for one of those huge corned beef sandwiches they have here.  Along with a nice thick layer of horseradish!”  I said.

          “Hah.  Well, I’m glad I’m not working next to you this afternoon!”

          “Horseradish keeps all the bad spirits away – makes for a very successful day” I remarked, putting in a little dig at Lucas.

          “So now you see the ‘supernatural’ everywhere after our last conversation?”

          “No – just horseradish-hating leprechauns,” I joked.  “I don’t see the supernatural in everything, like you do.”

          “So, seriously, I thought it was a pretty fruitful conversation last time,” Lucas said, turning a bit more intense.

          I realized that I had foolishly stepped in to that one.  “I guess so.  I don’t recall it being particularly earth-shattering.”

          “Well, as I recall, we concluded with your view that there is only ‘nature’ and there is no such thing as anything ‘supernatural’, no such thing as a miracle, and no such thing as God.  Would you agree?” Lucas asked.

          “Isn’t it obvious?  I’m not trying to be mean, but I just don’t see ‘God’ anywhere and I don’t see the need to invent ‘God.’  The scientific view just seems the most logical, doesn’t it?  And it seems to me that believing in God just causes people to waste their life going to church and so on.  Doesn’t seem like it does them any good.  I’m happy with my life as it is and I surely don’t need to complicate things with some belief in something that obviously isn’t there.  Like I said, if God wants me to be believe in him, that’s his problem…or ‘her’ problem…or ‘its’ problem or whatever.  It’s not my problem,” I said, hoping to close out this particular topic.

          “Well, maybe it is your problem.  I mean, if there is a God and you have to face him in the afterlife, you’re going to have to answer for why you didn’t believe in him,” Lucas challenged. 

          “First of all, that’s not going to happen because there is no God.  But I’m glad you brought that up because that’s something that really bothers me.  God has no case against me or anyone else.  It would be totally unreasonable for God to blame me for not believing in him.  It’s his fault.  If he wanted me to believe in him then he should make it more obvious.  I’m a reasonable person – if the evidence were there, then I would believe in him.  If God hides from me, and then blames me for not believing in him, I think that is a pretty unjust God.  Is that the kind of God you believe in?” I asked, fairly irritated.

Lucas’ face brightened at statement, which annoyed me.  “Are you saying that God should make himself more obvious?” he asked.

          “Absolutely.  Like I said, when I look around, I don’t see any real evidence for God.  Everything has a logical explanation.  And the reason there is no obvious evidence for God is that he isn’t there to begin with,” I said.

          “Excellent.  God should make himself obvious?” Lucas asked.

          “Yes.”

          “Good.  Now we are getting somewhere,” Lucas said, still looking pleased.

          “What are you talking about?  We haven’t gotten anywhere.  All we’ve done is establish that your belief in God is founded on no evidence whatsoever and that, if there is a God, he is totally unjust and unreasonable and not worth believing in.  That’s where we’ve gotten,” I said.

“OK – so how should God make himself obvious?” Lucas asked.

          I was a bit frustrated that we were still going on about this.  “It’s easy.  There are lots of ways God could be obvious.  I mean, he could just appear right here and get the whole thing over with,” I said, pointing at the empty chair at our table.  “It’s simple.”

“Appear?” Lucas asked.  “You mean like “poof” – there he is?”

“Yeah – something like that.  That’s all it would take,” I said.

“All you would need is some kind of appearance?” Lucas asked.

“Sure – if God can do anything, then a little sudden appearance ought to be easy.  That would make an open and shut case and then I would believe.”

“I assume you’re talking about a miraculous appearance.  I mean, it wouldn’t be enough if George Burns walked up and sat down there and said he was God, would it?” Lucas asked.

“George Burns?  Wow, you are old!  No, I’m not talking about someone just walking up and sitting down – that could happen any time.  I’m talking about an appearance.  In fact, a flash of light and a little smoke would help,” I said.

“So you want a miracle?” Lucas asked, with an air of finality.

“Yes – a simple miracle.”

“But you don’t believe in miracles,” Lucas challenged.

“I know, so that’s why I don’t believe in God.  It’s not going to happen anyway,” I said

“No, I mean you’ve told me that there can’t be any such thing as a miracle.  There are only things that seem like miracles to people in the past, but they are all explainable by scientific investigation.  You’ve told me that everything has a natural cause,” Lucas said, leaning forward.

“Right - everything is just by natural causes.  There is no hidden supernatural being behind it all.  What’s the point?” I asked.

“So even if God appears right here next to us, you wouldn’t believe.  You’d just say it was some as-yet-unexplained natural event – an “AYUNE”.  A hallucination.  Indigestion.  A unique weather event.  Something,” Lucas challenged.

I was a bit taken aback, realizing I was on a bit shakier ground than I liked.  “Well, I mean, if it was so obvious…We’re talking about a being appearing out of thin air.  That would be obvious.”

“But now you’re bending your own rules.  You mean that there can be some miracles as long as they are miraculous enough?”

“Well, I’m talking about things that could only be explained by supernatural means.  Someone appearing in the chair is a supernatural event,” I said.

“Wait a minute!  Earlier you said that everything has a natural explanation, and now you’re backtracking.”

“I’m not backtracking.  There’s no one sitting there and there never will be anyone or anything that just appears there.  The point is there are no miracles.  That’s what I’m trying to say,” I said.

“But if I understand your view correctly, you not only believe that there are no miracles, but there never could be miracles,” Lucas challenged.

“Well…” I said, trying to figure out how to explain my views. 

“You’ve told me before,” Lucas interjected “that the reason you don’t even consider that anyone has ever actually risen from the dead is that there is no such thing as miracles.  But now you’re saying that there could be miracles.  Face it – you’re waffling on your own beliefs.”

“Ok, ok.  That’s not what I meant.  I know where you want to go with that.  My point is that it’s not my problem how to figure it out – it’s God’s problem.  If he wants me to believe in him, then he’s got to blow me away with something.”

“But no matter what it is, according to what you’ve told me before, no matter how miraculous it was, you’d say it is an ‘AYUNE’.”

I didn’t like that he create some new word.  “You’re making it sound illogical, but my view is the most logical.  It’s based on scientific observation.  And since there is no God, there won’t be any violation of my views.  Besides, if your God is so great, then he’s going to have to figure it out.  It shouldn’t be hard for him.”

“So,” Lucas said, with a certain air of finality, “it is God’s responsibility to prove himself to you, but he can’t use any miraculous means because you won’t accept any miracles.  What does that leave him with?”

“What do you mean?” I asked.

“Well, if God can’t use any ‘supernatural’ means to prove Himself to you, then that only leaves natural means, right?” Lucas asked.

“Sure – he’s God – he’s got to figure it out.”

“Through natural means only?”

“Why do you say ‘through natural means only?’” I asked, a bit confused.

“Well, isn’t it basic logic to say that if everything is divided into ‘natural’ and ‘supernatural’, and you get rid of ‘supernatural’, then the only thing left is ‘natural’.”

“I guess, if that’s how you want to put it,” I said.

“So, to summarize, you are convinced there is no God because you don’t see him.  But in order for him to appear to you, it would have to be through some natural means?” Lucas asked.

“It doesn’t have to be something ‘natural’ – it just can’t be a miracle.”

“So God has to prove himself to you and he can’t use any supernatural means.  He just has to use natural means.  Is that a correct statement?”

I wasn’t really sure that sounded right, but I was ready to move on.  “Sure, if that’s how you want to phrase it, fine.  Are you happy now?” I asked, hoping to wrap this up.

“Yeah, that’s enough thinking for now.  Let’s eat,” Lucas said with a smile.

“You’re not done with this, are you?” I said.

“Hah” he said with a big smile.  “I’ve got a lot more up my sleeve.  But right now I think it’s time for that horseradish!”

“You too?  I didn’t think you liked horseradish,” I said.

“Well, with enough of that wafting into our brains, we might just see someone appear in that chair…maybe even ten someones!”

“Good luck with that!” I said as I took a good first bite and let the horseradish clear my brain from the conversation.

[On to Session III]