Lunches with Lucas – Session II

<Link to Session I>

         As Lucas approached the table, I searched his face to determine if I was in for another grilling on boring “religious” topics.  But he seemed pretty content.  “Hey Lucas, how are you doing?” I asked.

          “Pretty good – how about yourself?”

          “Great.  I’m ready for one of those huge corned beef sandwiches they have here.  Along with a nice thick layer of horseradish!”  I said.

          “Hah.  Well, I’m glad I’m not working next to you this afternoon!”

          “Horseradish keeps all the bad spirits away – makes for a very successful day” I remarked, putting in a little dig at Lucas.

          “So now you see the ‘supernatural’ everywhere after our last conversation?”

          “No – just horseradish-hating leprechauns,” I joked.  “I don’t see the supernatural in everything, like you do.”

          “So, seriously, I thought it was a pretty fruitful conversation last time,” Lucas said, turning a bit more intense.

          I realized that I had foolishly stepped in to that one.  “I guess so.  I don’t recall it being particularly earth-shattering.”

          “Well, as I recall, we concluded with your view that there is only ‘nature’ and there is no such thing as anything ‘supernatural’, no such thing as a miracle, and no such thing as God.  Would you agree?” Lucas asked.

          “Isn’t it obvious?  I’m not trying to be mean, but I just don’t see ‘God’ anywhere and I don’t see the need to invent ‘God.’  The scientific view just seems the most logical, doesn’t it?  And it seems to me that believing in God just causes people to waste their life going to church and so on.  Doesn’t seem like it does them any good.  I’m happy with my life as it is and I surely don’t need to complicate things with some belief in something that obviously isn’t there.  Like I said, if God wants me to be believe in him, that’s his problem…or ‘her’ problem…or ‘its’ problem or whatever.  It’s not my problem,” I said, hoping to close out this particular topic.

          “Well, maybe it is your problem.  I mean, if there is a God and you have to face him in the afterlife, you’re going to have to answer for why you didn’t believe in him,” Lucas challenged. 

          “First of all, that’s not going to happen because there is no God.  But I’m glad you brought that up because that’s something that really bothers me.  God has no case against me or anyone else.  It would be totally unreasonable for God to blame me for not believing in him.  It’s his fault.  If he wanted me to believe in him then he should make it more obvious.  I’m a reasonable person – if the evidence were there, then I would believe in him.  If God hides from me, and then blames me for not believing in him, I think that is a pretty unjust God.  Is that the kind of God you believe in?” I asked, fairly irritated.

Lucas’ face brightened at statement, which annoyed me.  “Are you saying that God should make himself more obvious?” he asked.

          “Absolutely.  Like I said, when I look around, I don’t see any real evidence for God.  Everything has a logical explanation.  And the reason there is no obvious evidence for God is that he isn’t there to begin with,” I said.

          “Excellent.  God should make himself obvious?” Lucas asked.

          “Yes.”

          “Good.  Now we are getting somewhere,” Lucas said, still looking pleased.

          “What are you talking about?  We haven’t gotten anywhere.  All we’ve done is establish that your belief in God is founded on no evidence whatsoever and that, if there is a God, he is totally unjust and unreasonable and not worth believing in.  That’s where we’ve gotten,” I said.

“OK – so how should God make himself obvious?” Lucas asked.

          I was a bit frustrated that we were still going on about this.  “It’s easy.  There are lots of ways God could be obvious.  I mean, he could just appear right here and get the whole thing over with,” I said, pointing at the empty chair at our table.  “It’s simple.”

“Appear?” Lucas asked.  “You mean like “poof” – there he is?”

“Yeah – something like that.  That’s all it would take,” I said.

“All you would need is some kind of appearance?” Lucas asked.

“Sure – if God can do anything, then a little sudden appearance ought to be easy.  That would make an open and shut case and then I would believe.”

“I assume you’re talking about a miraculous appearance.  I mean, it wouldn’t be enough if George Burns walked up and sat down there and said he was God, would it?” Lucas asked.

“George Burns?  Wow, you are old!  No, I’m not talking about someone just walking up and sitting down – that could happen any time.  I’m talking about an appearance.  In fact, a flash of light and a little smoke would help,” I said.

“So you want a miracle?” Lucas asked, with an air of finality.

“Yes – a simple miracle.”

“But you don’t believe in miracles,” Lucas challenged.

“I know, so that’s why I don’t believe in God.  It’s not going to happen anyway,” I said

“No, I mean you’ve told me that there can’t be any such thing as a miracle.  There are only things that seem like miracles to people in the past, but they are all explainable by scientific investigation.  You’ve told me that everything has a natural cause,” Lucas said, leaning forward.

“Right - everything is just by natural causes.  There is no hidden supernatural being behind it all.  What’s the point?” I asked.

“So even if God appears right here next to us, you wouldn’t believe.  You’d just say it was some as-yet-unexplained natural event – an “AYUNE”.  A hallucination.  Indigestion.  A unique weather event.  Something,” Lucas challenged.

I was a bit taken aback, realizing I was on a bit shakier ground than I liked.  “Well, I mean, if it was so obvious…We’re talking about a being appearing out of thin air.  That would be obvious.”

“But now you’re bending your own rules.  You mean that there can be some miracles as long as they are miraculous enough?”

“Well, I’m talking about things that could only be explained by supernatural means.  Someone appearing in the chair is a supernatural event,” I said.

“Wait a minute!  Earlier you said that everything has a natural explanation, and now you’re backtracking.”

“I’m not backtracking.  There’s no one sitting there and there never will be anyone or anything that just appears there.  The point is there are no miracles.  That’s what I’m trying to say,” I said.

“But if I understand your view correctly, you not only believe that there are no miracles, but there never could be miracles,” Lucas challenged.

“Well…” I said, trying to figure out how to explain my views. 

“You’ve told me before,” Lucas interjected “that the reason you don’t even consider that anyone has ever actually risen from the dead is that there is no such thing as miracles.  But now you’re saying that there could be miracles.  Face it – you’re waffling on your own beliefs.”

“Ok, ok.  That’s not what I meant.  I know where you want to go with that.  My point is that it’s not my problem how to figure it out – it’s God’s problem.  If he wants me to believe in him, then he’s got to blow me away with something.”

“But no matter what it is, according to what you’ve told me before, no matter how miraculous it was, you’d say it is an ‘AYUNE’.”

I didn’t like that he create some new word.  “You’re making it sound illogical, but my view is the most logical.  It’s based on scientific observation.  And since there is no God, there won’t be any violation of my views.  Besides, if your God is so great, then he’s going to have to figure it out.  It shouldn’t be hard for him.”

“So,” Lucas said, with a certain air of finality, “it is God’s responsibility to prove himself to you, but he can’t use any miraculous means because you won’t accept any miracles.  What does that leave him with?”

“What do you mean?” I asked.

“Well, if God can’t use any ‘supernatural’ means to prove Himself to you, then that only leaves natural means, right?” Lucas asked.

“Sure – he’s God – he’s got to figure it out.”

“Through natural means only?”

“Why do you say ‘through natural means only?’” I asked, a bit confused.

“Well, isn’t it basic logic to say that if everything is divided into ‘natural’ and ‘supernatural’, and you get rid of ‘supernatural’, then the only thing left is ‘natural’.”

“I guess, if that’s how you want to put it,” I said.

“So, to summarize, you are convinced there is no God because you don’t see him.  But in order for him to appear to you, it would have to be through some natural means?” Lucas asked.

“It doesn’t have to be something ‘natural’ – it just can’t be a miracle.”

“So God has to prove himself to you and he can’t use any supernatural means.  He just has to use natural means.  Is that a correct statement?”

I wasn’t really sure that sounded right, but I was ready to move on.  “Sure, if that’s how you want to phrase it, fine.  Are you happy now?” I asked, hoping to wrap this up.

“Yeah, that’s enough thinking for now.  Let’s eat,” Lucas said with a smile.

“You’re not done with this, are you?” I said.

“Hah” he said with a big smile.  “I’ve got a lot more up my sleeve.  But right now I think it’s time for that horseradish!”

“You too?  I didn’t think you liked horseradish,” I said.

“Well, with enough of that wafting into our brains, we might just see someone appear in that chair…maybe even ten someones!”

“Good luck with that!” I said as I took a good first bite and let the horseradish clear my brain from the conversation.

[On to Session III]